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  1. #11
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    I think that Angry Joe is a bit of a prat and likes to make talking points where there are none. He clearly hasn't read the Metro novels, because a lap dance is certainly not inconsistent with the tone of this franchise. And - oh yeah - it's entirely optional.

    If being propositioned by an impressively endowed woman in her (see-through) underwear isn't for his puritanical tastes - or if he just finds it weird that sex will continue to sell after the demise of civilization as we know it - he can always save his five military-grade bullets for something else. God forbid people try to make the most of a bad situation. I suppose the section in which a child is elated to be reunited with his teddy bear should be cut, as it slightly interrupts the soul-crushing despair of the game-world for a few seconds.

    The scene serves a narrative purpose anyway. It demonstrates what kind of a man a certain character is... and it is interesting that in such a high-tension game, where you're frequently in fear of being ambushed by irradiated monsters at pivotal moments, there is a time where you're interrupted by a scantily-clad vixen instead. It was a quirky contrast and i appreciated it.

    The mood generally lightens a little in the habitat sequences. This is true of the first game and the books on which they are based.

    Anyway, i finished it just now and give it a 9/10. It's the best story-driven FPS i've ever played.

  2. #12
    Disciplinary. INTY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    I think that Angry Joe is a bit of a prat and likes to make talking points where there are none. He clearly hasn't read the Metro novels, because a lap dance is certainly not inconsistent with the tone of this franchise. And - oh yeah - it's entirely optional.
    Invalid analysis on Angry Joe as a critic. He's a capable reviewer and does know what he's talking about. Not the best and does have an attendance to focus too much on humor and his presentation over the content occasionally, as well as a lot of the time definitely be too forgiving (example case in point with this game, he didn't pick up on the initial linearity of the level design and let that by without notice), but he doesn't just ramble about nothing. As for having read the Metro novels, neither have I, but if you're saying this game captures the way the novels handle sex, then they're as bad as each other with how they handle it. Even in the context Val, considering the nature of the game, the way sexual themes are handled in this game are very immature. And yes, the lap-dance is optional, how ever when an element is in a game, the developers expects it to be interacted with-optional or not, so it must be brought into consideration for criticism, especially in a review. It's like justifying an optional sequence where, as an extremely base-level example you could fight a giant dick. Regardless of it being optional, if that did come into someones experience with the game, it would alter the consistency of the overall tone, and this does the same here. It's not needed, and even though it's within the context of the series, it's nothing more than an interruption, as I said before, a speed bump. I'll also really hope that the novels don't handle sex in this manner as well, as I was hoping this issue would be an exclusive problem for this game

    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    If being propositioned by an impressively endowed woman in her (see-through) underwear isn't for his puritanical tastes - or if he just finds it weird that sex will continue to sell after the demise of civilization as we know it - he can always save his five military-grade bullets for something else. God forbid people try to make the most of a bad situation. I suppose the section in which a child is elated to be reunited with his teddy bear should be cut, as it slightly interrupts the soul-crushing despair of the game-world for a few seconds.
    Ahh, it isn't an issue of the context Val, the problem actually lies in the execution. It's understandable that this sort of scene would still exist in the world. How ever, that's a pleasure scene, a place where people can just have a cheap thrill. The actual nature of that sort of area is out of place for the grim world Metro tries to create. It's existence, is understandable for the context but when you actually do need to go through this area and see guys watching, phwoaring and touching up the childishly endowed women (and when I say childishly endowed, I mean in terms of how the animators endowed them, not their actual endowment)-that's the distracting element. If the existence of this area in the game ended with seeing that red curtain where the silhouette of the women was showing through it, that would have been fine. It would have acknowledged its existence without needing to alter the consistency of the tones, but here the developers clearly just wanted to be a bit juvenile and go that little bit further, possibly to please the gamer, or to get some more attention for the game. Either way, its execution would distract from the experience. As for the teddy bear scene and the shooting gallery, erh, I would view those as kind of pointless, but not as distracting as the execution of the strip club.[/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    The scene serves a narrative purpose anyway. It demonstrates what kind of a man a certain character is... and it is interesting that in such a high-tension game, where you're frequently in fear of being ambushed by irradiated monsters at pivotal moments, there is a time where you're interrupted by a scantily-clad vixen instead. It was a quirky contrast and i appreciated it.
    See? Now that concept is fine, would serve to benefit the game in a way as well. How ever, the execution is just that little bit juvenile, wherein its existence doesn't fit with the rest of the games mood. If it was executed a little bit more maturely for the sake of the actual game-experience, then it would be perfectly fine. As it stands though, it simply does disrupt

    Argha, apologies for this being a long post too. When you get me criticizing/analyzing/explaining, I'm afraid I don't skim on the details ^^'. All though in fairness, considering how much I do it, I suppose that's a fair thing

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  3. #13
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    Thank you very much for telling me how i should feel about Angry Joe. I really appreciate it!

    I would not personally describe anything i have seen of his as 'humour' and i found his Mass Effect 3 analysis to be particularly weak. I just don't like him; I don't think that he has anything particularly insightful to say.

    Perhaps you could explain exactly what it was about this sequence that you felt was lacking in maturity? To equate it to a fight with a penis seems kind of ridiculous. Invalid, almost, because strippers actually exist, and giant phalluses capable of engaging in physical combat with human beings do not.

    The strip club was there because Venice was depicted as a particularly seedy part of the Metro. There are gangsters harassing locals, gambling and a place where ladies take their clothes off.

    Spoiler!


    I'm just not seeing the lack of maturity here.
    Last edited by Vault Hunter; 22-05-2013 at 05:56 PM.

  4. #14
    WKD4496 Dark Seducer's Avatar
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    I knew those bouncing boobs would be trouble.

  5. #15
    Disciplinary. INTY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Thank you very much for telling me how i should feel about Angry Joe. I really appreciate it!

    I would not personally describe anything i have seen of his as 'humour' and i found his Mass Effect 3 analysis to be particularly weak. I just don't like him; I don't think that he has anything particularly insightful to say.
    Ah-no. No Val, I'd never be that presumptuous or arrogant, as to tell people how they should feel about something subjectively. Same for your standing on his humor, separate humans developed in different upbringings are always going to find different things humorous, that's totally understandable. How ever, when analyzing something from an objective stand-point, that's something entirely different, and isn't something you can really justify with 'opinion'. When viewing Angry Joe as a critic, that's an objective thing. Maybe he isn't suited to you subjectivity as a critic, due to his tier of criticizing things, which is again understandable, but when you objectively comment on his quality as a reviewer and are wrong, that's where you do need to be corrected.

    Spoiler!


    Also as a favor to me, please wrap the quoted post in spoiler tags, as it does give away a scene. It's not something plot destroying but...eh, I'm a bit finicky about stuff like that, if that makes sense ^^'

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Seducer View Post
    I knew those bouncing boobs would be trouble.
    Ahaha, I'm certain as well as this that somewhere in the world some poor sap found himself without any bullets to trade in for customizizing his weapons after entering the strip club =P.
    Last edited by INTY; 22-05-2013 at 07:27 AM.

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  6. #16
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    Dan, i don't think that objectivity applies here. Looking at something objectively just means doing so without letting your bias and preconceptions blind you. It is quite possible for two people to look at the same thing and come to two different conclusions.

    As far as Angry Joe is concerned, you can objectively look at his production values and consider how articulate he is, but to say that someone who doesn't find his arguments particularly impressive is 'wrong' is more than a little arrogant, and not behaviour becoming of such a humble young gentleman as yourself.

    Back to Metro. Your comparing the lap dance to fight with a penis was so ridiculous that it is kind of meaningless.

    Anyway, if i'm reading you correctly, you feel the scene is immature because it feels detached from the rest of the game, tonally? Again, i disagree. We are treated to a fairly tame joke of a sexual nature during the opening minutes. Then we have the stage show, the jaunt through the dressing room, and a lady showering.

    Of course, none of this is quite in same league as a first person lap dance... but the undertones are there from the get go.

    You also said that it isn't needed because there are other games where you can 'interact with raunchy women'. To which i would say: there are lots of games played in the first person perspective that have you shoot things. How is that an argument? Sexuality is a part of being human, so it stands to reason it would be explored fairly often. Metro did a better job of it than most.

    I also feel that comment betrays your true feelings. We all know how you feel about Dooma's 'female beauty' thread. I get the feeling that you would be against depictions of topless women no matter what.

    Also, you decry the game's linearity, but this is one of many moments in which the player gets to choose his or her own actions. Like i said before: i've got to wonder why Angry Joe didn't just turn the woman down.

    I think it might be a bit like how so many republicans who are opposed to gay marriage engage in acts of homosexuality themselves.

    Finally, i put it to you that the immaturity here is coming from the crowd that can't look at a topless woman without completely wetting themselves. The scene was consistent with the tone of the game and the world created in the novels, and was in itself quite exciting.

    You are of course entitled to your view, though. I'm not so arrogant as to tell you that you are wrong.
    Last edited by YesConsiderably; 22-05-2013 at 11:10 AM.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Cheri's Avatar
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    Thank you for the review! I didn't realise they had already brought out a second Metro game!

    Didn't 2033 only come out sort of recently? I used to talk to the guy who ran the Metro 2033 and Homefront twitters and that wasn't too long ago.

    I need to get 2033 and play that, then i'll give this one a shot.



  8. #18
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheri View Post
    Thank you for the review! I didn't realise they had already brought out a second Metro game!

    Didn't 2033 only come out sort of recently? I used to talk to the guy who ran the Metro 2033 and Homefront twitters and that wasn't too long ago.

    I need to get 2033 and play that, then i'll give this one a shot.
    Do you play on Steam at all? Because Metro 2033 is free to play on that.

    Most Game stores are giving away promotional Last Light DVDs with a code to reclaim 2033 on the back. I'm not going to use mine, so if you (or anyone else) would like to use it, they can.

    And 2033 didn't come out that recently. At least 3 years ago.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Cheri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Do you play on Steam at all? Because Metro 2033 is free to play on that.

    Most Game stores are giving away promotional Last Light DVDs with a code to reclaim 2033 on the back. I'm not going to use mine, so if you (or anyone else) would like to use it, they can.

    And 2033 didn't come out that recently. At least 3 years ago.
    Nah my laptop is a budget laptop that I only use for work and light gaming. Steam would die miserably on this laptop.

    Game stores in which country, that's the question? haha


    I must have been mistaken, it must have been Last Light then...
    Ah well.
    Still gotta play this.



  10. #20
    Disciplinary. INTY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Dan, i don't think that objectivity applies here. Looking at something objectively just means doing so without letting your bias and preconceptions blind you. It is quite possible for two people to look at the same thing and come to two different conclusions.

    As far as Angry Joe is concerned, you can objectively look at his production values and consider how articulate he is, but to say that someone who doesn't find his arguments particularly impressive is 'wrong' is more than a little arrogant, and not behaviour becoming of such a humble young gentleman as yourself.
    Aye, but depending on the actual objective case of the situation, a view can be right and one view not, depending on whether or not the view is accurate. I wouldn't say, how dare someone be incorrect about something-I'd be a hypocrite to do so as I'm wrong about **** all the time ^^', but if I do spot out a situation where someone's view on something doesn't apply, I just make habit to try and explain the actual traits of it. So, as for a situation where someone would be saying Twilight is a well written book series? Not at all to say again that the nature of your view that the Strip club scene isn't immature is as poor as the quality of those books-again, just an extreme comparison =P. They would be wrong, as from a critical perspective the Twilight series, is just awful. They can like it and I wouldn't hate them for it, but there is a difference, especially with media, as to what can be an objective view and what has to be subjective. The state of the aspect of a game, in this case the state and execution of the strip club sequence in Metro Last Light, would be objective =).

    As for Joe, this is a case of where objective and subjective detach. Critics for the most part, base their statements on objective facts that show-case the game and its state, rather than talking about why they like it or why they don't-or at least the good ones should. While I do have problems with Joe, he does the job of managing to keep an objective stand-point when doing his reviews, so what he says is based more on statement than a subjective argument. You can always look at things in a particular way, or like particular things regardless of their execution, but a games execution is always going to leave it in a static case, where it is what it is, and while it can be viewed in different ways, there's always a truth behind the traits of it. Now if I was saying, you can't enjoy this sequence because it could have been executed to a better quality, that I could understand as being arrogant. Here though, I'm just analyzing Joe for his actual quality as a critic. As for the Humble Young Gentleman comment, well, I'd post to you an image of a man toping his hat, but this post is probably going to all ready be long enough =P.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Back to Metro. Your comparing the lap dance to fight with a penis was so ridiculous that it is kind of meaningless.

    Anyway, if i'm reading you correctly, you feel the scene is immature because it feels detached from the rest of the game, tonally? Again, i disagree. We are treated to a fairly tame joke of a sexual nature during the opening minutes. Then we have the stage show, the jaunt through the dressing room, and a lady showering.

    Of course, none of this is quite in same league as a first person lap dance... but the undertones are there from the get go.

    You also said that it isn't needed because there are other games where you can 'interact with raunchy women'. To which i would say: there are lots of games played in the first person perspective that have you shoot things. How is that an argument? Sexuality is a part of being human, so it stands to reason it would be explored fairly often. Metro did a better job of it than most.

    I also feel that comment betrays your true feelings. We all know how you feel about Dooma's 'female beauty' thread. I get the feeling that you would be against depictions of topless women no matter what.
    Well, the link between the fight with a giant dick and the lap-dance was solely based on the key point of that the execution behind both would be immature, and as a result distracting. I wasn't going any deeper than that with a comparison, as if I really wanted to go into a perfect comparison, it'd take me far longer than was needed when my focus was much more so on our conversation itself. As for the undertones, yes, those smaller elements that did connect to the strip club sequence in their themes were there, but because of how much less less focused on the sexual theme is with those elements, I'd say they're ok. The show's distracting for the physics of the chest more so than anything, but I wouldn't say it breaks the feel of the game. The strip club sequence is just so distant in what it can end up allowing you to experience though, that sequence's overall tone does feel distant. The other sequences have similar themes, but they're no where near as different in nature from the rest of the game.

    As for your comparison between first-person-shooters needing you to shoot things and this, those aren't the same things. Fist-person-shooter is the genre in which a game is built off, that's a design choice. Now I'd certainly, certainly agree with you in that a lot of them aren't needed. I'm far from alien with that issue, of that so many first-person-shooters are being developed based on the success of others, even though these ones don't have anything new to bring to the table, and so as a result you could fairly criticize them for being less needed. But in Metro Last Lights case, it has a lot of intriguing stuff to bring to the table for its First-person-shooter. The immersive mechanics, the world and its atmosphere as well as how educated the A.I is are a few things that would justify it as a game where it doesn't feel like a needless game. In the case of the strip club...now I don't check out those games that I mentioned? But as I said, I'm sure there are a lot of them, and I can imagine there are plenty that allow you to do the same things that this sequence does. Where Metro Last Lights existence is justified for the interesting ideas and their respective execution, what's in the strip club sequence I can't see as being ground breaking territory in game-play tiered around those themes. I don't know, I could be wrong about that and the only people who make those erotic games don't have much experience with game development-take that view as more of an unbased one than anything. But, Metro Last Light definitely earns its place as a justified game, whereas yeah, there are a lot of FPS that just don't need to be there.

    Ehe, as for Dooma's thread, I can definitively imagine people thinking I'm a Middle-Eastern man who thinks women shouldn't be on display like that after what I've said there. Truth is though that I think I've been misconstrued. I'm fine with the concept of that girls are hot, if Dooma wants to make a thread based on that, that's his choice and I just wouldn't have any subjective interest. The reason that that threads bothers me is due to his naming of it, the female beauty thread, when beauty and sex appeal are two different things in nature. I never said the thread was scum (as far as I'm aware) or anything like that, and if it was named accurately I wouldn't have had the debate that I did in there, it was just a case of me trying to explain an inaccuracy with it. My reason for disliking the sexual themes of strip club in Metro Last Light, is because they're distracting from the game for the section they're in it for. With Dooma's thread, it's just because it's not named properly-not as big of an issue objectively but for me the particular mix-up between beauty and sex appeal is more of a personal gripe as well, which was probably evident in my posts ^^'.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Also, you decry the game's linearity, but this is one of many moments in which the player gets to choose his or her own actions. Like i said before: i've got to wonder why Angry Joe didn't just turn the woman down.

    I think it might be a bit like how so many republicans who are opposed to gay marriage engage in acts of homosexuality themselves.

    Finally, i put it to you that the immaturity here is coming from the crowd that can't look at a topless woman without completely wetting themselves. The scene was consistent with the tone of the game and the world created in the novels, and was in itself quite exciting.

    You are of course entitled to your view, though. I'm not so arrogant as to tell you that you are wrong.
    Oh I don't criticize the game as being linear in total, not at all. It is a linear F.P.S by design, but it's the first few levels that are the problem, with far more restrictive linear tropes. The rest of the game's fine with its linearity. As for Angry Joe...hehehe, now I'm not going to deny him as a self-glorifying missionary pervert, who delved into an area of the game that he didn't want to, to see how it affected the game objectively. He could have just been after the cheap thrill or was curious, as for me, it was actually for the review, same as for why I played a level with the English voice acting on instead of the Russian. I already knew through Totalbiscuit's WTF is that the English voice acting could be pretty cringe-worthy, but wanted to actually base what I'd write in the review on something I was finding, if that makes sense? Don't want to just be regurgitating what I've heard.

    And aye, that is the issue. The less mature a person is, and the more maturely accustomed to the idea of a naked woman they'll be, the less the scene will distract them. As a content provider though, you must understand that you're dealing with an audience, where there are a lot of immature people. It's not something I like, but ultimately there would be a lot of people who would be distracted by the ass and titties (possibly Joe), and as a result, because the developers weren't restrictive enough in what they developed, it caused a huge distraction in what those players experience. Look at the number of people where the first thing they comment on is the strip club over the games actual legitimate quality, that's how much it distracted them. If the sequence executed itself more maturely, with the few examples I did give, it could have kept the beneficial, structural and worthwhile elements without running the flipped coin of leading to someones experience where they hit that speed bump. It depends on the person whether or not it will affect them, but it's the objective execution that can cause that distraction based on the person, so based on that it can have that effect due to its execution, it does need to be mentioned in a critical review of the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cheri View Post
    Thank you for the review! I didn't realise they had already brought out a second Metro game!

    Didn't 2033 only come out sort of recently? I used to talk to the guy who ran the Metro 2033 and Homefront twitters and that wasn't too long ago.

    I need to get 2033 and play that, then i'll give this one a shot.
    You're welcome, glad it gave you some useful insight =). As for Metro 2033 though, it came out in 2010, so not that long ago.
    Last edited by INTY; 22-05-2013 at 04:52 PM.

    Oh **** the color from the sig doesn't match the new layout any more.
    Erhm
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