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  1. #21
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, but no; you are wrong. Speaking objectively isn't the same as speaking definitively. Just because you feel your opinion is objective doesn't make it right. Look at the world of academia - papers backing contrasting views are constantly published. There are precious few things we can speak definitively on.

    Metro: Last Light is a first person shooter. It is set largely in the nuclear war ravaged ruins of Moscow. It has a huge yellow 'M' on the front cover.

    When you say that the lap dance scene is immature, that is just your opinion. Sure, if, say it was accompanied by the Benny Hill theme or the dancer 'motorboated' Artyom, then that might have pushed the encounter into undeniably immature territory, but it didn't. It's close enough to the line that, objectively, both opinions are valid.

    I replayed that chapter last night and accepted the dance, just to see what all the fuss is about, and i still don't really get it.

    And i don't know about your game, but mine came with an 18 on the cover. As a 'content provider' the developers did all they could reasonably do to ensure children wouldn't pick up the game. It is adult in its depictions of hopelessness and suffering, it makes sense to be adult in other areas too.

    By all means mention it, but... well, it's just your opinion, man.

    And as for my comparison... fine. Scrap that. It seems a bit hypocritical to consider interactions with raunchy women uneeded because they appear in other games, when so many other little touches that appear in so many other games have already been used. That's not a reason to not do something is my point, and it still stands.
    Last edited by YesConsiderably; 23-05-2013 at 12:47 PM.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    I'm sorry, but no; you are wrong. Speaking objectively isn't the same as speaking definitively. Just because you feel your opinion is objective doesn't make it right. Look at the world of academia - papers backing contrasting views are constantly published. There are precious few things we can speak definitively on.

    Metro: Last Light is a first person shooter. It is set largely in the nuclear war ravaged ruins of Moscow. It has a huge yellow 'M' on the front cover.

    When you say that the lap dance scene is immature, that is just your opinion. Sure, if, say it was accompanied by the Benny Hill theme or the dancer 'motorboated' Artyom, then that might have pushed the encounter into undeniably immature territory, but it didn't. It's close enough to the line that, objectively, both opinions are valid.

    I replayed that chapter last night and accepted the dance, just to see what all the fuss is about, and i still don't really get it.

    And i don't know about your game, but mine came with an 18 on the cover. As a 'content provider' the developers did all they could reasonably do to ensure children wouldn't pick up the game. It is adult in its depictions of hopelessness and suffering, it makes sense to be adult in other areas too.

    By all means mention it, but... well, it's just your opinion, man.

    And as for my comparison... fine. Scrap that. It seems a bit hypocritical to consider interactions with raunchy women uneeded because they appear in other games, when so many other little touches that appear in so many other games have already been used. That's not a reason to not do something is my point, and it still stands.
    Oh god no, I'm not saying being a critic gives you the capability of being permanently right, but when you're viewing the game from a critical stand-point, you're breaking it down to its most factual level of quality. As for the last bit of detail that I could tell you about why the dance in particular derails the quality of the experience, and has a high chance to, it's because of the unnecessary detail in goes in to. In context the entire sequence is fine, but when demonstrated, the whole thing just goes into an area with attitude and vibes that don't merge with that of the rest of the games. If there was more subtlety implored, with say it fading to black with the stripper, or the strippers themselves being hidden behind booths-or hell, even going with an approach that would have left that area, in the game, behind that red curtain with a silhouette of the women, blatantly showing what was going on back there, it would have been fine. But no, the developers did go a little bit further and put everything on display, and the way in which they did it feels juvenile, to a point where the vibes don't mix with that of the rest of the game and where it results in a lot of gamers ended up having it distract from the experience for them, as is evident with the conversations about it. As for the 18 rated, age is irrelevant for judging a personality and you're always going to find people who still jaw-drop at an overly-sexualized woman on display. If the developers executed it in a different manner, a more mature and more restricting one, the experience of the game will have been more reliably consistent-but as it stands, there's a chance that for most people, this is a scene that'll just stop them in their tracks. We weren't talking about the content being inappropriate for younger audiences, just for its potential to derail depending on the person.

    As for the level of how 'needed' it was, that's not so much an objective issue as it was a situational one here. Here, the level of blatancy in the execution wasn't needed, and I suppose this goes on to why it didn't need to be executed in such a blatant manner. So as I've been saying, the game could have just executed that whole section with far more subtlety and restrictiveness that would have gotten the context across without being so distracting. Considering how maturely and sophisticatedly the rest of the atmosphere is built, this area seems different in how blatant and in your face it is with its content, sort of like a fan-service gallery...and I suppose that's why most people disapprove. As well as how juvenile the execution is, it all just feels like the developers executed it in the way they did so you could have a look at bouncing tits and asses, maybe to strike up more attention for the game. If executed in the superior fashion, it probably wouldn't have riled up that level of attention. That level of sophistication in its build is also what you'd expect from the level of quality that the rest of the game offers, but here it just suddenly drops, conveniently in the way that would have gotten a lot of attention. That's speculation of course, and not objective fact, for all I know the developers just dropped the ball here-maybe due to their thoughts running away from them when needing to think of 'how can we interpret a stripper?...mmm...'. As for the sequence though, it's execution just isn't up to par with the rest of the atmosphere the game creates in terms of its restrictiveness and calmness and it results in a sequence that would cause people to lose focus, which is obviously a problem with it and a shame.

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  3. #23
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    Hmm.

    Destructoid's Jim Sterling, who is generally my favourite reviewer although i don't necessarily always agree with him, was criticised as being 'biased' last year. In response he wrote a 100 percent Objective review of Final Fantasy XIII. And it was ridiculous. Critics are supposed to be opinionated. You can try to break something down to 'its most factual level of quality' but i don't think you'll ever write something that everyone will agree to.

    Anyway. You suggested a few things the game could have done to make the scene more palatable. I don't think that any of them would have worked. Everything in the game, aside from a couple of weird cut-scene sequences, is displayed from the first person perspective. It would immediately remove you from the game world to take you out of Artyom's body and behind a red curtain. If you're meaning the dancer would take Artyom's money, and then strip from behind a curtain, that makes even less sense.

    Fading to black might seem like a good idea, but when you really analyse the game you might find that it wont work. For several reasons.

    Lets not forget that the screen fading to black happens at the end of each level or in some cases when Artyom is knocked out. It represents the passing of a significant amount of time. Fading out for a few minutes would negate this effect.

    Also, we are meant to see and feel the seediness of Venice. Cutting it out would negate this effect.

    Lastly, lets not forget the screen did fade out during

    Spoiler!


    So the concept of subtlety clearly isn't lost on the writers. There is a reason one was faded and one wasn't. The lap dance was meant to tell us something about the area, the other was meant to be somewhat more tender and affecting. In that instance, knowing what

    Spoiler!


    it was a good idea to fade to black. There is no way that wouldn't have come across as immature. Seeing it would have taken something away from the moment, but at the same time actually not seeing it added something. You can't say the same for the lap dance.

    The scene wasn't 'needed', but so what? You can level that criticism at half the content in every game ever produced. It added to the game because it demonstrated the type of place you were in, and didn't take you out of the world to do it.

    It doesn't actually seem to have garnered that much attention. Angry Joe is an attention-seeking jackass. Jim Sterling, a professional and paid reviewer, didn't mention it in his review. Some people just shouldn't be playing mature-rated games, i think.
    Last edited by YesConsiderably; 23-05-2013 at 05:08 PM.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Hmm.

    Destructoid's Jim Sterling, who is generally my favourite reviewer although i don't necessarily always agree with him, was criticised as being 'biased' last year. In response he wrote a 100 percent Objective review of Final Fantasy XIII. And it was ridiculous. Critics are supposed to be opinionated. You can try to break something down to 'its most factual level of quality' but i don't think you'll ever write something that everyone will agree to.
    And like I said, I wouldn't look down on someone for not seeing the objective side of things. If the case of that review is that he simply says he's being objective but doesn't grasp that, and allows a biased-nature towards the game to get in the way (I won't know, as I won't be reading it due to a lack of interest in the Final Fantasy series) well very obviously that's not viewing it objectively. As I said in the previous post, just because someone says something as a critic doesn't make it the case, it actually has to be legitimate in its own terms-so just because Sterling says it's objective doesn't make it so, how ever I can't judge this for myself with his review.

    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Anyway. You suggested a few things the game could have done to make the scene more palatable. I don't think that any of them would have worked. Everything in the game, aside from a couple of weird cut-scene sequences, is displayed from the first person perspective. It would immediately remove you from the game world to take you out of Artyom's body and behind a red curtain. If you're meaning the dancer would take Artyom's money, and then strip from behind a curtain, that makes even less sense. Fading to black might seem like a good idea, but when you really analyse the game you might find that it wont work. For several reasons.
    Lets not forget that the screen fading to black happens at the end of each level or in some cases when Artyom is knocked out. It represents the passing of a significant amount of time. Fading out for a few minutes would negate this effect. Also, we are meant to see and feel the seediness of Venice. Cutting it out would negate this effect.
    Ah no, the suggestion was to have the other ladies that were in this sequence behind curtained booths with subtle suggestions for that there were women behind them, not the intractable stripper herself-that's the one that fading to black on would have been more appropriate for. As for the lessened effect of a black-out showing the passing of time, this is a fairly basic editing/presentation choice, and it's not exactly precious to the game. Lowering the effect of this would only be a minimalistic price to pay if it meant going with something that would keep the atmosphere, one of the games key points, consistent. Blacking out on the stripper wouldn't suddenly throw the gamer out of the idea that cutting to black represents the passing of time, but the execution of the strip club sequence does still detach itself from the rest of the game atmosphere creating that speed bump effect. Which of those two issues being the more negatively impacting is fairly obvious. As for the seediness of Venice, with the better execution that still would have been obviously understood by the gamer unless they were 100% innoccent-you didn't need a stripper bending over and pressing her ass to your face to get that across =P

    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Lastly, lets not forget the screen did fade out during
    Spoiler!

    So the concept of subtlety clearly isn't lost on the writers. There is a reason one was faded and one wasn't. The lap dance was meant to tell us something about the area, the other was meant to be somewhat more tender and affecting. In that instance, knowing what
    Spoiler!

    it was a good idea to fade to black. There is no way that wouldn't have come across as immature. Seeing it would have taken something away from the moment, but at the same time actually not seeing it added something. You can't say the same for the lap dance.The scene wasn't 'needed', but so what? You can level that criticism at half the content in every game ever produced. It added to the game because it demonstrated the type of place you were in, and didn't take you out of the world to do it. It doesn't actually seem to have garnered that much attention. Angry Joe is an attention-seeking jackass. Jim Sterling, a professional and paid reviewer, didn't mention it in his review. Some people just shouldn't be playing mature-rated games, i think.
    Spoiler!


    Its level of need is mainly an undertone to its objective issue though, that one being it's negative-though I wouldn't push it enough to say de-constructive effects on the game. Given its negative effects, and the little reason it had to be executed in the manner it was, just makes you wonder why was this done this way? Think what you would of Angry Joe as a person, his relatively good quality as a critic is irrelevant to that. And Val-you've got to understand, just because a game is a mature game overall-and that is certainly true for this game, doesn't mean it is always consistently mature. This one sequence is detached from the game, because of its lack of maturity. That's why it's a speed bump for the game, after all.

    EDIT:...or hell of course it just occurred to me, the mechanical option for the lad-dance didn't even need to be there, she could have offered and that would have gotten the context across just as easily
    Last edited by INTY; 23-05-2013 at 05:42 PM.

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  5. #25
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    I'll cut and paste it then; it's quite good.

    Final Fantasy XIII is a videogame released on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360. It was developed by Square Enix. It stars characters. One of the characters is called Lightning and that is the main character of the game that can be played with a controller. The game's story is about Lightning and a collection of other characters who must fight some other characters called Fal'Sie and save a planet called Cocoon. The story has a beginning and an ending and a middle bit.

    Final Fantasy XIII belongs to the role-playing-game genre of videogames, more specifically a genre that some people dub "JRPG" with "J" standing for Japanese. Final Fantasy XIII was developed in Japan which would make this genre designation accurate. The game has things in it that other JRPGs have, such as leveling up and weapons and shops.

    The battle system is a battle system. In this battle system players select commands for one character while other characters are controlled by the game's AI. Players can manually designate commands or let the AI decide which course of action is best. There is a system called the Paradigm shift which is new to Final Fantasy XIII and it allows players to pre-program how characters behave and the player can swap these behavior patterns whenever they want during a battle to deal with different circumstances. Many people enjoy the Paradigm system, but other people do not like it so much.

    Player have the ability to restart a battle if it does not go well which you may or may not find useful depending on your personal preference. You might also find weapon leveling useful but that's only if you find weapon leveling useful, so whether or not you find weapon leveling useful is down to how useful you ultimately find weapon leveling.

    You can save the game if you want sometimes.

    The videogame has graphics and sound. The graphics are seen with your eyes and the sound is heard by your ears. When you start the game the graphics and the sound will occur almost at the same time, letting you know that the game has started. There is also text which players can read.

    If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and like it, then you like Final Fantasy XIII. If you buy Final Fantasy XIII and don't like it, then you don't like Final Fantasy XIII. It has things in it that some people might enjoy but other people who have different ideas of what is enjoyable may not actually enjoy it.

    In conclusion, Final Fantasy XIII is a videogame.

    Score: N/A (Since a reviewer would use his judgment to give a game a score, a score cannot be given at this time.)
    Again, all i can say is that you are not speaking definitively. In your opinion the scene is out of place, but i feel a much better case can be made to the contrary, and that i have presented it. Since you seem to have no problem pressing your opinion on this scene as somehow factual, there is little point in continuing. I do not find your argument compelling at all, and feel as though you're failing to look at the scene in context.

    Lets just wait and see how others feel when they play the game.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Again, all i can say is that you are not speaking definitively. In your opinion the scene is out of place, but i feel a much better case can be made to the contrary, and that i have presented it. Since you seem to have no problem pressing your opinion on this scene as somehow factual, there is little point in continuing. I do not find your argument compelling at all, and feel as though you're failing to look at the scene in context.

    Lets just wait and see how others feel when they play the game.
    Ah, I guess I've not managed to get the points through to you then. Ah well I suppose, not much I can say for it other than wasted time ^^'. Well, maybe not entirely, the analysis was enjoyable for me, as it always is

    EDIT: Aha, read the review, that was good ^^, truth be told I was expecting a genuine review rather than a parody in response to people questioning his points in the other review being personalized, so that gave me a good laugh
    Last edited by INTY; 23-05-2013 at 05:58 PM.

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  7. #27
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    Your 'points' came through quite clearly. I just completely disagree with them, and the idea that your analysis is some sort of sacred truth.

    The fact is that this game was penned with help from the author of a cult-classic turned international best-seller, that just so happened to be the book on which this series is based, and a personal favourite of mine, and that the atmosphere throughout is not just consistent with that of the novels, but also both games.

    They say it's the oldest profession. If women were taking their clothes off in biblical times, i'm fairly certain they'll be doing it should civilisation go to hell. A strip club in the Metro is not out of place - and neither is a desire to lose oneself in a seemingly hopeless situation. I remember a codex entry in Mass Effect 3 about the financial implications of the war with the Reapers. Most industry stagnated - aside from alcohol and 'escapist vids'.

    What i'm saying is that to think this sort of thing wouldn't go on just because the game is almost painfully bleak for large periods is ridiculous, and kind of childish.

    It doesn't black out when a little girl talks to her father, who is trying to catch a fish, and tells him to not catch cancer. It doesn't black out when you see people literally coughing their guts up. One of the game's greatest attributes is that is utterly unflinching in its depiction of the Metro and the lives of those who live there.

    Naturally, some of those lives are going to better than others, and for the sake of consistency, they need to be shown in the same manner. Blacking out the screen only to return a few moments later, with Artyom in the exact same place you left him, would break the immersion, and would not be consistent with the way that particular framing method had been used throughout the rest of the game.

    As i mentioned, the writers knew when blacking out to specifically not show something would work for the benefit of the narrative, as opposed to the benefit of those with more puritanical tastes. The one time they didn't show us the action, so to speak, it meant something. That sort of importance should not be placed on a bleeding lap dance.

    The lap dance itself does not break the game's atmosphere, unless you simply ignored the events of the previous living areas. Or in the case of Angry Joe, if you need a titillating talking point to attract viewers.

    Once again: i don't disagree with you because i don't understand you. I disagree with you because i think your analysis is a little simplistic and that you failed to really understand the game's tone.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    Your 'points' came through quite clearly. I just completely disagree with them, and the idea that your analysis is some sort of sacred truth.

    The fact is that this game was penned with help from the author of a cult-classic turned international best-seller, that just so happened to be the book on which this series is based, and a personal favourite of mine, and that the atmosphere throughout is not just consistent with that of the novels, but also both games.

    They say it's the oldest profession. If women were taking their clothes off in biblical times, i'm fairly certain they'll be doing it should civilisation go to hell. A strip club in the Metro is not out of place - and neither is a desire to lose oneself in a seemingly hopeless situation. I remember a codex entry in Mass Effect 3 about the financial implications of the war with the Reapers. Most industry stagnated - aside from alcohol and 'escapist vids'.

    What i'm saying is that to think this sort of thing wouldn't go on just because the game is almost painfully bleak for large periods is ridiculous, and kind of childish.

    It doesn't black out when a little girl talks to her father, who is trying to catch a fish, and tells him to not catch cancer. It doesn't black out when you see people literally coughing their guts up. One of the game's greatest attributes is that is utterly unflinching in its depiction of the Metro and the lives of those who live there.

    Naturally, some of those lives are going to better than others, and for the sake of consistency, they need to be shown in the same manner. Blacking out the screen only to return a few moments later, with Artyom in the exact same place you left him, would break the immersion, and would not be consistent with the way that particular framing method had been used throughout the rest of the game.

    As i mentioned, the writers knew when blacking out to specifically not show something would work for the benefit of the narrative, as opposed to the benefit of those with more puritanical tastes. The one time they didn't show us the action, so to speak, it meant something. That sort of importance should not be placed on a bleeding lap dance.

    The lap dance itself does not break the game's atmosphere, unless you simply ignored the events of the previous living areas. Or in the case of Angry Joe, if you need a titillating talking point to attract viewers.

    Once again: i don't disagree with you because i don't understand you. I disagree with you because i think your analysis is a little simplistic and that you failed to really understand the game's tone.
    Val, you need to remember the things I've said to you. I didn't say a strip club was out of place in context, but its vibes and atmosphere, due to their execution don't mesh as I've already explained. I have said to you that I didn't think it wouldn't be going on, but the execution isn't well handled and it's due to that specifically that it detracts and creates the speed bump. Yes, one of the greatest attributes to the game is how it depicts itself, but someone coughing up blood and a stripper pressing her ass to your face is very different, and where one fits, one distracts. And you know you are right about that, about the black out for the stripper being stupid in execution. A better option than the current execution in the final product, but still not the best. While we were talking though I realized, the interactive choice of having the strip dance wasn't even a necessity in that it offered nothing constructive to the game and wasn't the only way to get the context across. She could have simply offered you a lap-dance when you went near here like how other N.P.C's talk to you when you go near them, that would have also gotten the context of what they're doing across with just as much as ease and without a distracting execution. And no Val, it is due to its nature liable to break the atmosphere depending on the gamer, meaning it is problematic, and so does need to be brought into account when reviewing the games overall quality. I understand the games tone Val, this sequence is just not as well executed as it could have been, and as a result breaks the tone. I'm not going to look down on you for not understanding that though, as you do seem to be very passionate about the game
    Last edited by INTY; 23-05-2013 at 06:28 PM.

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  9. #29
    Can you call me Nyteblade YesConsiderably's Avatar
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    That is very gracious of you, to not look down on me for not understanding the game.

    Unfortunately i am not quite so gracious, so will bow out of the conversation. I've coherently explained my position; that will have to be enough. When you coherently explain why the scene is out of place, maybe i'll return.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesConsiderably View Post
    That is very gracious of you, to not look down on me for not understanding the game.

    Unfortunately i am not quite so gracious, so will bow out of the conversation. I've coherently explained my position; that will have to be enough. When you coherently explain why the scene is out of place, maybe i'll return.
    *shrugs* I have done, thoroughly now Val, as I've said, it's just not getting through to you. Also, the wording of bow out of the conversation, I hope you've not taken this as some form of argument? I'm not a person who believes in taking debates that personally, so I'd regret to think you've done the same when I'm involved

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